Comments on Vincent C. Donnachie: In Search of Transformation 2 - Non-Conformity

I just wanted to say how thankful I am for this co...

2007-04-04T08:26:00.000-05:00

I just wanted to say how thankful I am for this conversation. After reading your words b.r., it was confirmed to me how important this kind of thinking really is to our faith. So much of the time, we are just told what to think - what's right, what's wrong, what the Bible says - but we rarely take the time to consider if we honestly believe what we are told and if not, what
may need to be readjusted in our thinking.
When our foundations are tainted (which they all are because we all are already formed by the world), we build God's truths upon an unstable base.

Does the communication of facts alone bring about a change into Christ-likeness? I don't think so. The hearer must take time to consider if they truthfully believe what they are hearing, not just - that they should believe -regardless. If the hearer takes time to answer some hard questions as you all are doing here, then God can bring the real us to the surface, heal it and help us confront it and then we learn to die to those unsure foundations and come alive to God's actual truth.

Anyway, thank you again. If there is anyone else reading this, please consider answering the 2 questions as well. It is a much needed conversation.

Thanks for reminding me of that story about Samuel...

2007-04-03T15:24:00.000-05:00

Thanks for reminding me of that story about Samuel and David. How wonderful that God looks on my heart and sees the real person I am. I too, see where people's opinions have shaped how I see myself and how I believe God sees me. Sometimes it seems I will never stop jumping through hoops and over hurdles in my attempt to gain the approval of others. The darker side of this involves my attempts to manipulate others in order to adjust their thinking and protect my good reputation. You remember I am laboring under the idea that I must be a good person/Christian in the eyes of all around me. This is an impossible undertaking! Of course I never have the approval I so crave at least not for very long (Those hoopes and hurdles never end.) and in the process of trying to secure it I stop seeing people as valuble in their own right but only valuble as far as they are able to bolster my sagging esteem.

Not to get ahead of Vince here in his series but I find I must cling with fierce determination to the Truth so I am in touch with God's reality. I can see my thoughts, motives, words and actions changing over time. When I get away from God's truth I see the transformation process slowing or stalling even. Actually, this happens on a fairly regular basis! But hopefully less and less often.

Anonymous, I appreciate your comments. You were kind to not leave my last comment hanging out there without a response. It cost me someting to think through the questions and post even just that comment.

So true b.r. We tend to judge God by the circumst...

2007-04-03T14:06:00.000-05:00

So true b.r. We tend to judge God by the circumstances of life. If things are going well God loves us but if they aren't he's mad at us. If good things are happening God is good but if bad things are happening we doubt God's goodness.

It takes faith in the word of God to believe God loves us and that he is good. But the circumstances of life test our faith. I can so relate to the senerio you described.

I'll give you another example of how the world shapes how we think God sees us.

We let the way people view us shape the way we think God sees us. People's view of us shapes our view of ourselves. But God's view of us is what should most matter to us.

James 1 says, "let the brother of humble circumstances glory in his high position; and let the rich man glory in his humiliation, bec ause like flowering grass he will pass away." We tend to view ourselves by our position in this world rather than by how God sees us.

Even the prophet Samuel did not see people the way God sees them. When God told him to go anoint the next king of Israel he was not able to discern who God had chosen. He would have picked the wrong guy. God told him that man judges by outward appearances but God looks at the heart. (see 1Sam.16)

I have heard over the years many times "would a lo...

2007-04-03T09:55:00.000-05:00

I have heard over the years many times "would a loving God permit such and such to happen?" as an arguement against belief in God. I've been a Christian for most of those years. I do believe in God. The idea that God, who has allowed these things, can certainly not be trusted has made its way into my thinking. So, although I truly love God and want more of Him there is this fear in me. It touches everything in my life. When I believe God to be untrustworthy I place the care of my own life in my hands. It is all up to me to find fulfillment, meaning, happiness. I must look elsewhere for it because I can not trust God to really have my best interests at heart. I look to job performance, family, ministry success, material goods, even mundane things like punctuality and clothing! I am a Christian... but the way I have been shaped by the world, church, relationships, etc. does prevent me from recieving all that God has for me.

As for how all of this affects how I think God sees me it's basically an idea that I am not worth the effort to Him. How terrible! I know in my head that the cross was for me. But this idea has come from my own attempts to process events and experienes apart from God. What I mean is that I believe that somehow the tragedies of my life are my fault (Don't we get what we deserve? I hear the world say). I am to blame and filled with a sense of shame. The shame makes me hide from the only One who can really help me. So I am bankrupt, empty, worthless, and dying inside. But, I have learned that I must keep up appearances to prove I'm a good Christian so I hide once again trying to just manage my deep sense of shame and pain alone.

I could say more but is this also what you are looking for, Vince?

Anonymous, I am sorry to be unclear. Sometimes I t...

2007-04-02T13:59:00.000-05:00

Anonymous, I am sorry to be unclear. Sometimes I try saying the same thing in different ways in hopes that it paints a more full picture. What I mean by "functions of the world" is the everyday matter in which our society does life (the ways we relate to one another, the priorities we feel impressed to have, the ethics that businesses and schools and families follow, etc.). In other words - I am using "functions of the world" as a broad description for those things that influence us in this life.

As far as your answer, I would say yes -that is what I am after. Although not exclusively. There is not a right or wrong answer with these questions because they can only be answered after personal introspection concerning our individual lives. So, if your answer honestly described the ways in which the world has formed your image of God and who you are to Him...than that's it.

Hopefully, others will join in with their thoughts as well. I can definitely relate by the way, to the whole judgment thing and have often been my own worse enemy in this regard.

God is not focused on all the ways in which I have to change. He is instead hoping that I can one day see who I already am because of what His Son accomplished. If I can ever see myself as truly loved and forgiven (even those words cheapen the weight of the deep meaning that they should convey), than I do change. I become on the outside what is already a reality on the inside.

The criticisms and judgmental voices we have heard through the years have formed us into being self-critical and incapable of being fully loved (as I mentioned before); unless we seek to renew our minds with right thinking which leads to transformation.

Also, b.r. -thank you. Glad you are here and looking forward to your thoughts as well.

Good questions! Let me just say that for me, perso...

2007-04-02T10:23:00.000-05:00

Good questions!

Let me just say that for me, personally, the main reason I am considering posting the answers to your questions is that in your blogs and even in the comments I sense a love and respect for those of us who read them. And I know that this has it's source in Christ.

Anon.- Thank you for your transparency in the last comment. I see the same Christlike love and respect for the reader in your comments and that helps,too.

Vince, What do you mean by "functions of this worl...

2007-04-02T09:19:00.000-05:00

Vince, What do you mean by "functions of this world?"

As far as the relationships we have in this world affecting our relationship with God, the affect is devestating, and decieving. We tend to think God will relate to us the way the people in our lives have related to us, because this is the only experience we have in relationships.

The judgment thing is one way our perception of God is tainted. The way the authority figures in our lives have treated us is the way we tend to think God will treat us. The petty judgments that others and we make are the same kinds of judgments we think God will make of us. Basically, we make God in man's image.
After walking in Christ for awhile I finally began to realize God wasn't making the same petty judgments of me that I was making of myself, judgments I had learned to make from the people around me.

Is this the kind of stuff you're getting at?

This is really good, deep, challenging stuff, Vinc...

2007-04-01T18:01:00.000-05:00

This is really good, deep, challenging stuff, Vince and Anon. I am coming late to this converstation but maybe not too late. This is a little odd to say but I am going to have to comment again later. I need to take some time to think, pray and read your blog,the verses and comments again before I can answer Vince's question.

That was great. I enjoyed reading your summarizati...

2007-04-01T08:23:00.000-05:00

That was great. I enjoyed reading your summarization. Now, the thought to this particular post is, in what ways is our old nature present (or, how are we wired or influenced by our environments)?

As much as I like the book of Romans and understand, to a point, some theology, I never took the time to seriously consider the ways that I am conformed to the systems of this world. I think I just assumed that I knew already. It was easy to believe this as long as I looked to the obvious, surface actions.

But secret motivations and faulty conclusions, that are the result of my interactions with the systems of this world and culture, have so influenced me and on much deeper levels than I previously gave time to consider, that my very view of God and me in His world may be preventing me from opening up to fully accept the finished work of Christ that you mentioned.

This is what I will be talking about in future post, but the bottom line is - many people simply are not capable of accepting and receiving the full love of God that He has lavished on us. Even if we come from strong and secure families. Many secretly do not think they are worthy of such a love and so they are not redefined by it. Which in turn means they may not capable of living what Paul later outlines in Chapter 12. I think pop-psychology would put it this way; healthy people act in healthy ways or people who are secure in love, can love others more selflessly.

I am getting ahead of myself here but this is where I am aiming in future post. For this conversation though, I would say that there may be others like me, who can barely recognize what my old nature is and to what extent I am influenced by its thinking, unless I stop to prayfully contemplate the questions raised in the post.

I am not sure if this dialog consists of 2 or 3 people so far, but I am enjoying it! Glad you are here.

I agree Romans 12 is a call to action after buildi...

2007-04-01T05:19:00.000-05:00

I agree Romans 12 is a call to action after building a case in the preceding chapters. And although I agree it might be difficult to summerize his case briefly forgive me for making an attempt.

Paul states that he has been called to preach the gospel, and says it is the power of God unto salvation

He then outlines how we are all sinners, Jews and Gentiles and seperated from God because of it.

Faith in Christ is the solution.

We need to die, our old nature, so we are called to be buried with him in baptism.

We are then encouraged to walk in the Spirit and put to death the old nature. Those who do are the true sons of God. This is where I think we battle to renew our minds. The Spirit would like to give us the mind of Christ, but it is a process and we have to work with Him.

He then offers thoughts on God's sovereign will concerning weaving in of the Gentiles with the Jews in this great plan of salvation.

We then come to his admonishment to offer our bodies as living sacrifices and renew our minds in view of God's great plan of salvation of us.

How was my summary?

I like your description of us being "wired a parti...

2007-03-31T20:08:00.000-05:00

I like your description of us being "wired a particular way." I think beneath all the diverse cultural patterns is one flaw. We are sinners. We are not empowered by the Holy Spirit, but by other spirits. 11:32 says God has shut up all in disobedience that he may show mercy to all. And 12:ff says that now through an awareness of God's great mercy we need to be ready to change. To overcome the evil within and without with good.

The change is radical and deep. It is not superficial, and surfacy, as you alluded to in your blog. I must confess a real fear that I will never more than scratch the surface of the changes God is calling for here.

One change that I have found to constantly grab my attention is the need to no longer act as a judge of others. Paul elaborates on this in Chap. 14.

I find this extremely difficult. I think we are "wired to judge." It is part of the fall, "you can be like god, knowing good and evil." It is human nature to act like a little god. But we need to have our minds renewed so that we are no longer judging but only make judgments as we are led by the Holy Spirit.

Even Jesus said he did nothing on his own initiative. As he heard he judged. (John 5:30)
Like you said, it's a process. And for me the process seems to be going very slowly.

I agree. The book of Romans has much meat and is m...

2007-03-31T08:53:00.000-05:00

I agree. The book of Romans has much meat and is my favorite letter in the NT. Romans 12 is really a call to the right kind of action after building an entire case in the preceding chapters. This would be a little difficult to summarize for the purposes of this blog.
Chapter 12 starts with the word "therefore," and what a "therefore" it is! Through a deeper understanding of all that Christ has done for us, Paul now urges us to offer our whole selves to God, laying our former selves down as living sacrifices, so that we can fully embrace what the rest of the letter has set out to say.

As a part of this process, we have to intentionally look at the ways in which we are and have been, conformed by the world in the way in which I stated in the post. This conformity will often get in the way of God's purposes for us. And then "renew" or replace our somewhat warped thinking with correct thinking about who God is, who we are and the rest of it.
From here, Paul goes on to describe what a healthy whole person who is growing in the knowledge of all that their salvation means, looks like.

Namely, they are humble, they recognize their dependency on one another, they sincerely love, are passionate about God and his purposes, they take care of the poor, bless those who would formerly be considered enemies, submit themselves to authorities and more.

Of course, even as Christians, living life this way seems to not come naturally. And the reason for this is, again - is that we have been wired a particular way, by our lives and environment. We have to be willing to re-learn, to test our assumptions, lest we think we are not products of this world at all and have some how risen above it. But the proof for me that I am not there yet is that I am not living the life Paul sets out consistently. In this way, not being conformed and renewing our minds are processes throughout life and not a one time decision.

Oh my gosh! I went way to long with this one. I wanted to weigh in though to further describe how I see the context that you were refering to. Of course, like I said, there is much to say about Romans, although I think my basic premise in the original post is true to the context without going into it all.

It would be great to hear from you in more detail as to your thoughts.

Good questions Vince. I would also encourage cons...

2007-03-31T07:40:00.000-05:00

Good questions Vince. I would also encourage considering the context of Paul's admonition in Romans 12:2. In other words, what is Paul talking about in the context of giving us this admonition. I think this will add insight into what renewing the mind is about.

Yes, I know this is strange: I am the first to lea...

2007-03-30T09:14:00.000-05:00

Yes, I know this is strange: I am the first to leave a comment on my own blog. But I wanted to take a moment to ask you, the reader, to not only consider writing a thought about the post if you have one, but also to think about actually answering the two questions at the end. I know this requires a bit a transparency on your part and you certainly don't have to write anything. But if you would like to, it would make for an interesting dialog that may have some good fruit.